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Crisp Brake Kickstarter


By Crispy - Posted on 08 May 2014

NB: Originally posted elsewhere on the Global Riders Network and appears via syndication.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/202507570/c...

Please follow the link and I hope you are interested.

Please discuss

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Are you using a bearing or bushing at the main pivot?

It looks amazingly simple. Great idea.

How does overall power compare to XTs?

How much are you contributing, Allan?

Thanks for the comments.

Well with regards to power, my current model is using SLX pads and lever, and using the same lever ratio. this equals the same stopping power. This is actually one of the great advantages of this concept, the versatility and the single slave cylinder.
With only one slave cylinder we can have a greater pad clearance and at the same time be able change slave cylinder sizes without changing our calliper giving different leverage ratios.
Plus we can use bigger pads on the same calliper as it is not restricting the pad sizes as well.
So we can have a greater stopping power if it is desired.
On my current prototype I have just greased the pivot points, but for production I can't give too much away at the moment as certain workings of our system will need to be patented to support our principle patent in different parts of the world... if that makes sense.
And Hawkeye, up until now, about $10,000 without my labour (about 2 months full time), I will be selling my boat early next week...
And I am willing to do just about anything to get this going as I know how much better it is than what is already on the market.

BTW our first crude model is sitting a bit below XTR weight.

I congratulate you on your inovation to improve braking capabilities on our mountain bikes and also for the courage to invest to get the project off the ground. I was also thinking the modulation could also be improved with your concept. I think a bearing may also improve the pivot point and increase feel.

I was going to ask if you had been looking to patent the design or aspects of the design. Any chance of selling it to a larger company? Avid could use some help!

Looks pretty cool but for people to take you seriously it may be wise to just to just use one l in caliper, internet people are ruthless, haha!

Also is there any way to keep the pads aligned or could their weight cause the top of the pad to contact the rotor as bits wear?

Would make it pretty easy to make it a twin piston slave to reduce the lever travel and improve power.

Yeah I use both haha let them have a go.

With regards to pad alignment.I can use a normal pad spacing spring around the pads. On my prototype I use an Avid pad spacer/spring.
With regards to slave cylinders. Just by increasing the size of the slave cylinder from 16mm to 22mm I will roughly double the strength of my leverage ratio. This is alot easier/lighter than making multiple cylinders.

Ps I am really keen in getting this out there and if anyone has any contacts in the industry please let them know. I am keen to licence it out.

Cheers.

Please check out my Kickstarter page again, https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/202507570/c...

I have adjusted my focus to be more directed towards selling the MTB Brake and less from the whole theory itself.

As i am not yet pushing this globally yet, please help me out and tell me what I can do to encourage more backers.
Thank you

Looks pretty good! I needed the diagrams to understand how they work.

However, I think you may have jumped the gun on Kickstarter a little.
Endorsements and sponsorship still mean something in MTB, and I think it's a crucial step you might have overlooked.

Where can I see these in action?
Better yet, where can I see local riders on local trails giving these a flogging, then talking about how well they worked.

Get in contact with some fast local riders, and see if you can get half a dozen pairs out there on bikes for a few months.
Plenty of riders will be willing to use these for a few months and give feedback.
You need loads of various videos. Everything from xc to dh (or whatever the brakes are capable of). You want to show people the full range of applications. You will also need at least 3 cameras to film everything. 1 on the rider of course, and one showing each brake. Then do your fancy edit with picture-in-picture and some nice long runs with no cuts so we know ur not cheating Eye-wink

Once you have some professional looking videos with some rider interviews, get them out there. Email all the big (and small) bike websites. You will get massive exposure.

Of course having an un-patented product shown all over the world opens you up to somebody stealing it, but then again, if I were looking to steal an un-patented product, Kickstarter would be my 1 stop shop.

Your engineering and fabrication skills seem great, but unfortunately most people realise too late that they needed to invest more in marketing than making their products.

PS. Don't ask me to test them, I'm too slow.
PPS. You should be looking at implementing these on road bikes.
PPS. All of the above is just my opinion Eye-wink

MrMez, there is a set from years ago for road bikes that is almost identical, it has two pivot points to make it easier to mount to a bike though.

If it had something to aid the pads in cooling it would be nice, when my current brakes get too hot but the lever feel is almost the same as cold so I'd assume the fluid is fine but the pads are starting to change state or whatever they do when overheated.

I'm not cool enough for disc brakes on a road bike Eye-wink

Maybe XTR pads with the cooling fins?
Either way, i'd bet this design would stay cooler since the pads are far more open. You don't have the housing and pistons holding the heat in.

does the $200 get you one end or a pair? A year ago I would have laughed at that question myself but now you get a pair of xt's for around $200.

I think your idea, or at least a adaptation of it may have been mass market through Magura, though they have designed it around road bikes, and their total package is a lot more bulkier than yours and the internal design is a little different. possibly a wise move to speak to them about a partnership in idea thinking.

look up Magura RT8 or RT6
http://www.magura.com/en/bike/products/katalog/p...

I came across this as a Chinese rip off of the Magura design. (link below)

http://chirosangaku.blog109.fc2.com/blog-entry-1...

Keep up the lateral thinking.. AWESOME!

Cool ideas and a great strategy....
But I don't have a completed product of $500,000 sitting in the bank to do the sort of things you are suggesting Sad

I have a great idea (Patented), a few thousand I have spent on engineering, and heaps of drive.

All I need is $$$ and you will see these things out and around the place everywhere.

Now to get there I just need some trust that I can deliver and people like you buying my product on Kickstarter.

$200 an end, thanks I have updated the page.

Pretty cheap for a local product that is above and beyond anything else on the market.
Thanks, I hope you buy it.

Thanks mate, yeah Magura use a wedge i believe to push the arms apart.
Those Chinese ones look interesting, just like the ones on trains with the double hinge points... leave that up to your opinion.

I did talk to Shimano originally but they couldn't even be bothered to be interested... sad really.
But I think the idea needs to get some sales first before it gets the big boys attention.

Don't you need some state of the art Crisp Brakes on you bike Pete?

Thanks

Crispy, what is the possibility of you making just two pairs to loan out to select riders to test??

As a marketer, I'm thinking of your target audience. Males 25-40, uni educated, and been MTBing for 3+ years, riding 1-2 times a week year round.

These people are committed to riding and have enough technical knowledge (and enough money) to be building custom bikes, or upgrading components they are not happy with.

Your target audience knows their shit. The only thing that matters is performance. This severely limits the marketing approaches you can use to sell. Sex appeal or ego just won't work here Eye-wink

You've gotta find a way to demo these brakes so everyone can see them in action.

A 2min video showing the brakes in the toughest environment they are made for with some interviews from you and a few local riders, along with some of those cool diagrams etc is all you need.
Email a quick summary of who you are and what you are doing, along with a link to the video and some more detailed info to every MTB site. Pinkbike, vitalMTB, everyone. If it's a slow news week you could get lucky and find your video on a dozen sites.

If you haven't figured out already, you are going to HAVE to go international. I just don't think there is $100,000 worth of MTB brake sales in AUS over 30 days.
Successful Kickstarter campaigns also have a pretty poor reputation, one guy says:

"Note that as always with crowd funded projects, assume the project will be late and will under-deliver on features. Thus far, on the numerous products I’ve helped ‘fund’ (except a leather bike handle), that’s been the case."

Most people will take a "wait and see" attitude, so don't get too upset if the KS campaign fails. Interest is still there.

I really appreciate the time and effort you are putting in to help out.
I am working towards doing the first prototype run of 10 as soon as I can. Its just the even with CNC there is a setup cost making the jigs and so forth.
Getting some quotes early next week.

I think tomorrow I might start on my international campaign.
The way I see it, if only one in 1000 mtbers buy my brake. I only have to tell 1,000,000 to get my first run of 1000 funded and I will be away then Smiling

I will try and get some mtb mates in my vid saying why they like it over the weekend.... see how I go... haha

Thanks

Why uni educated?
Sticking out tongue

If your'e prepared to dig into it, the relationship between money, education and money is pretty scary, but not surprising.

Don't quote me on these numbers because it's been a long time, but a household earning over $100k annually can expect a 30% higher SAT etc score from their kids than a family earning $30k. SAT etc scores have a single purpose of university entrance.
As education increases, so does income, while unemployment decreases. Depending on the country, a doctoral or professional degree will see you earning ~3-4x as much as a high school grad, with ~1/4 comparative unemployment.
Bullshit oil & gas and tradie wages notwithstanding Eye-wink

And thus the cycle starts over.

So I figure uni graduates are more likely to spend $400 on brake upgrades Eye-wink

They didn't have any info on primary school dropouts, so I guess I'm boned.

A brilliant reply sir.
though i am not uni educated, nor do i have kids or a 30k income, my loving mortgage prevents me somewhat. Still yhe question hsd to be asked.

pete

So, how do you sell something you can't personally sample?

Ask Neil Young.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1003614822/...

Portable audio may seem miles away from brakes, but you market them the same.

Everybody today has an mp3 player, wether is a phone, iPod or something else. There is zero reason to buy one for $400, just because somebody says "it's better".
Yet the Pono player reached it's target in 24 hours and went on to be the 3rd highest funded KS project.

Watch the video on the KS page.

Yeah I think that is the sort of video i am looking at making tomorrow.
Make the audience feel my energy.

I have updated the rewards to offer some more levels, even pledging $1 will make a big difference.

Do you think I need the energetic why are we so much better vid before I go global?

Hi Allan
I've been looking at your brake idea & think it's great that a local guy is having a go at making something new & innovative, however I do see a few negatives in the design & unless you have a way of overcoming them I believe the negatives outweigh the positives.

1. Power. By adding levers & pivots you will have some mechanical loss over a conventional caliper due to flex & wear.
You say that you can fit bigger pads but that will simply spread the load over a larger area, the braking pressure per mm will be reduced.
2. Weight? Ok, you don't need to add material to resist heat conduction but you still have a piston, fluid, arms & pads. I do think that the pistons could be made of a lighter material though.
3. Size. I can see this design on the trains (correct me if I'm wrong). In order to house the linkages & resist flex it will need more bulky?
4. Complexity. More moving parts, production costs to assemble & stuff to wear.

To be competetive you will need to better the best conventional systems out there, as Deore brakes retail around $55 per end & XTs around $100 you will need to be able to produce this brake for around $20 to $30 per end at the factory when in full production UNLESS the brake is lighter than anything comparable power wise as serious XC racers will pay for less weight.

As I see it your brake is a like a hydraulic disc "v" brake & I'm not convinced but I would like to be wrong:-)

I look forward to seeing it in action.

1. Power, braking power= coefficient x clamping force.
Coefficient = several things like pad size, heat losses, pad material, and environmental conditions.
With my design by increasing the pad size, improving the cooling. Even increasing the clamping force (very easy with this design). I can send you over the bars with a touch of the brakes if that is what you want, haha. So much freedom to play around with.
2. If I increase the pad size (coefficient) I can then decrease my clamping force to maintain the same total braking force. Then by decreasing my clamping force I can get even lighter if I want.
3. Stress is calculation of the cross section of area. I can build an I beam to transfer the loads whilst the existing tech needs to stay pretty chuncky.
4. I do have more moving parts. But mine are not subjected to radical heat changes all the time... what is the first think to fail on your brakes the seals in the lever(not effected by heat) or the ones in the calipers (alot more expensive and specialist as well)?

Yeah I am more expensive right now but its a local product, cutting edge tech and how else will we ever develop unless we put in to move forward?

Cheers. I really do appreciate the opportunity to reply and I hope I make sense.

I am a CNC machinist and have been involved with product development in the past. I think you are going to need to invest some more time and money into producing a more refined prototype and then prove that it really is better by real world testing. It seems your major selling point has to do with heat reduction, how many people really have a problem with heat? Those are the people you need testing and proving that your product solves an existing problem. These days longevity is not a problem with brakes, they are cheap enough that many people would just upgrade their brakes or even their whole bike before they would need to service the seals on the calipers.

Crispy needs to get these on a tandem with disks. I've never had a pair of brakes so hot as last week in the Convict.

I'm yet to pull the calipers apart to check damage but I'm almost certain a seal kit replacement will be prudent, along with new pads.

I would be really interested to see how the CrispBrake compares to the Hope V4 under similar conditions.

I think it's absolutely essential to have that video before anything.

Any of the possible technical peculiarities or even pricing will not be an issue, IMO.
Again, just look at the Pono player. If you think cyclists are fussy, you should hear audiophiles going on, and on about vinyl, codecs, dacs and horn loaded tweeters. Audio is just as technical as cycling. Out of the 11min KS video, you probably see 30 sec of the actual player, and thats largely by accident. Then, they didn't even bother demo-ing it properly. Most of the music was played in Young's car, which is the worst listening environment, the other half was played on a variety of headphones. I couldn't see a headphone amp there which would make many audiophiles cringe.

Yet the money flooded in.

And it kept flooding in despite the $400USD price tag, and the fact most audio experts say a well encoded MP3 on your phone will sound exactly the same.

The world is full of highly successful rubbish that has sold brilliantly due to good marketing.
Godzilla 1998 movie. The Sony execs watch the final cut before its release. It's was shit and they hated it. In an attempt to recoup their 130mil investment they kicked the marketing into high gear.

After all said and done they grossed $380 million.
Brilliant for a film that "won [the] Golden Raspberry Awards for Worst Supporting Actress for Pitillo and Worst Re-Make or Sequel. The film was also nominated for Worst Picture, Worst Director, and Worst Screenplay."

Now I'm not saying these brakes are rubbish, but if you do it right, selling them has nothing do do with how they work or how good they are.

As before, excellent replies. Thanks.
Sorry was too busy to reply today. Trying to find and push a CNC shop who can get a few prototypes completed in the next week...
And yes Mr Mez video process will happen soon. Gotta get the good looking prototypes done first tho.

Btw as my patent covers electronic activation of the caliper as well. And the way it is designed we can take advantage of this much better than existing calipers.
Would you like to see development in this area?
If so I hope it is a good reason to back Crisp Brake, because even God knows I need some cash to see this rolling.

Thanks.

Look what just showed up on my FB feed...

http://ambmag.com.au/news/new-disk-brake-caliper...

That type of profile raising is great, keep it up. Smiling

And it looks like a http://www.mtb-news.de/
has got onto it as well...
And the pledges are starting to roll in...

I gotta get these prototypes done and the vid first, ohh well.

I have to apologize. I have used the term coefficient incorrectly.
The only thing that will effect the braking force is clamping force and the pad coefficient. We have designed the system around the 5000N clamp force and .5 coefficient. To equal around a .7 g stop.
Which we believe is the max you could want.
Can be changed if we want very easily.

Now I will be using the biggest pads I can because those advantages are easily seen. Better cooling and longer pad life.

Thanks

I have buckled and joined Facebook. https://m.facebook.com/Crispbrake

I will be posting updates as things develop on the page. Facebook is still very new to me but I am learning.

Is it me or...

Eye-wink

When the rotor heats up the wheels become carbon?!

Wow, what an image Rob,
Well before its time, carbon wheels, Crisp brake, even got in before Rockshox with the inverted fork.
If you look closely you can see they even used a hookless rim...

Eye-wink

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